Why has there been a need to rebuild the left in Argentina? The left in Latin America was never really in con- tact with the masses, especially in Argentina. There were two great parties that were the axes of politics and builders of the state in Argentina. Justicialismo [Peronism] and radicalismo had nothing to do with the orthodox left, but some of their members did identify with the left. But the greatest conceptual difficulty leftists in our country had was understanding the times and the situation of the population. Populist movements like justicialismo, which had certain leftist elements within them, were the ones who advanced the most politically. Another reason for the failure of the left here is the failure of the left elsewhere. Before 1989 one could search for explanations in the bad strategies of each sector, like in the Soviet Union, where there was a dou- ble discourse and a disdain for individual liberties. In the case of the Argentine left, when it set upon the path of armed struggle, it did not take into account that it was up against a professional army, and that the major- ity of society did not support its strategies. We must take into account that Argentine society is not a leftist one, but one with many conservative elements. The left embarked on a dialectic with their enemy, the armed forces, abandoning the path of politics, as if there could be a balance between one and the other. The Montoneros, the People's Revolutionary Army, and other leftist sectors abandoned the political path much too early, and in turn became captive of the militariza- tion of politics-which the armed forces clearly won. Another factor is that our authoritarian upbringing was so much a part of us that throughout Latin America, those sectors that honestly proposed revolution as a means for change did so with the same conceptual authoritarianism as those they sought to replace. When I joined the human rights movement, for example, I saw that the left also spurned the concepts of human rights and democracy. The new left in Argentina has come to value democ- racy; it values the importance of institutions and wants them to be strong. We give a lot of importance to the development of institutions. Before, it was the opposite: one had to destroy all institutions and then see what could be done. But I would not say that FREPASO is on the left. When 46% of the electorate of this city votes me into office, I cannot say that my constituency is on the left, because if I do, then I have no idea of what this city is all about. VOL XXXI, No 1 JuLY/AuG 1997 7 Why has there been a need Argentina? a 8 I A R G E N T I N AVOICES ON THE LEFT What are the immediate challenges facing FREPASO? One challenge is, as Secretary General of the Frente Grande Carlos Auyero once said, having "to build the ship as we sail," not in a small stream, but in the high seas. Since 1994 we have always been navigating in some ocean. Another challenge for us is evaluating whether the neoliberal cycle in Argentina-popularly known as menemismo-has run its course. We believe it has. Unless President Carlos Menem performs a mira- cle, or there is catastrophe in the opposition, there is no way Menem can revive people's hope that things will change. He has no political strategy, other than a public- ity strategy, but he cannot make it stick with the current high rate of unemployment. Just take a walk through Buenos Aires and you'll realize that there are neighbor- hoods with 100% unemployment, not 40% as they say. Faced with this situation, what can we do? How do we act? How do we devise a development strategy given this daunting legacy? We have to have an idea of the type of state we want. That is one of the problems of progressives throughout Latin America. We went from the paternalist states that populism built to having no state at all. If there is no state, then who regulates the relationship between the powerful and the dispos- sessed? Our principal challenge is defining what kind of state we should build. Do you think that FREPASO is clear about its political role? I believe there is a great deal of hope within FREPASO. It is very much like the time when radical- ismo was born as a revolutionary response to the dire needs of immigrants, to whom it gave political expres- sion. Half a century later, justicialismo came on the scene, also in response to various circumstances: the war, the challenges of the postwar period, the need to include the marginalized, etc. It recognized massive needs, and it sought to build a state to fulfill those needs. It created a benefactor state, perhaps an over- protective one, and then turned it into an industrialist state. From the 1970s onward, there has been an effort to completely undo these state structures. We are aware of the methods that are being used. Menem's mission is clear. Not long ago, he said that he envied Pinochet because he [Menem] had to implement the neoliberal model in a democratic context. That is really an expres- sion of an old Argentine political paradigm: that a soci- ety that demands its rights, one that seeks to control its authorities and participate, is considered a nuisance. That is why a corporatist and exclusive political class was created in Argentina. Since we belong to that soci- ety, we have to be careful not to let that tendency appear in our midst, because history repeats itself. The prob- lem is that it is difficult for people to believe in politics when politicians command from very authoritarian and elitist positions. Another great challenge is learning how to build mechanisms that foster democracy and equal treatment. Today, society needs to establish the rule of law. And we need to create institutions that function democrati- cally and operate efficiently; let justice be independent and uphold the rules established by society and be applicable to everyone equally. The objective is still to recreate a society that includes the excluded; one that can reincorporate them in the best way possible, without the false promise that everyone will have salaried work, which may no longer be possible. How do you promote the work of small and medium-size businesses? How do you stimulate coop- eration? And how can we come up with a national plan for Argentina, when this country is turning into an arch- ipelago of very distinct realities? We are appealing to very simple things here. What natural law says that you have to be miserable just because you are a citizen? The same goes for discrimination. Today the progressive movement has to move in this direction: strengthening political liberalism is a very valuable concept for help- ing us rethink relations between men and women. We also have to rethink relations between people and insti- tutions in order to win back the people. What mechanisms does FREPASO have in place to facili- tate grassroots participation? This is the first time our party will have internal elec- tions in the capital city, where we are strongest elec- torally, though not as well organized as some other par- ties. One way we are trying to facilitate participation is by holding internal elections for party leaders. Only members of FREPASO can vote to elect party officers, and the list of legislative candidates will be made according to the outcome of the vote. Another way to facilitate participation is through national and local congresses of FREPASO, where political matters are discussed, but they are not well accepted. Campaigning every six months is not very conducive to discussion. Do you believe that people are more or less willing to mobilize than they were five years ago? Up until ten years ago people mobilized. In 1985, when the country was returning to democracy, Alfosin brought us all to the Plaza de Mayo in support of his war economy plan. During the military uprising in 1987, people also rose up. Then came Alfonsin's first defeat, and afterwards the only one who could mobilize people was Menem. But people were already becoming disillusioned. NACLA REPORT ON THE AMERICASVOICES ON THE LEFT Today there is moderate voter turnout, political affil- iations are not increasing much, and those who distance themselves from politics the most are the youth. Only now do you see something like a rekindling of young people's interest in some spaces. In universities, for example? Not just there. There are young people who are join- ing the Red Cross or Greenpeace, which are not parties, but social and ecological organizations. I was at a meet- ing where young people were discussing their activi- ties, and a young woman was saying that young people today are easily hooked on anything that has to do with solidarity. They are eager to participate, for example, when they are asked to help out at a We we school. This is the romanticism of the patern youth. It's a curious thing. How do you evaluate the participa- tion of Argentines in recent anti- Menem protests, such as the national strike and the blackout? have been passed recently that provide reparations to the families of the disappeared. But while the human rights movement was very strong here during the dicta- torship, and pushed the issues in post-dictatorship poli- tics, it no longer has the same strength. You cannot even say that feminist movements in Argentina are strong. There are no great social movements here. From the point of view of the problems in Argentina, how do you see the problems in the rest of Latin America? There is a paradox in Latin America. Right now it is Snt from alist state of populism to having no state at all. If there is no state, then who The blackout was, interestingly regul enough, a very individualistic mea- relationsh sure, but it turned out to have a mas- sive effect. The truth is that one had the powei only to stay at home in the dark, but people found ways to make noise. dispo0 This is an example of the way the left is proposing innovative measures that recognize the individual. One of the difficulties always present within the left was that the common good subsumed the individual; now they are starting from the individual and they are building something more collective. The first national strike was also a chal- lenge. It was first and foremost a protest against the eco- nomic model. People were feeling very pessimistic. Not long ago I read the results of a poll in which 80% of the population said they oppose privatization. People used to applaud privatization; when the privatizing wave came, everybody said it was good. Now that everything is privatized, people are reacting saying that it was no good. I do not know if everything is worse, but they are now angry at the same thing they cheered before. What type of relationship does FREPASO have with Argentine social movements, such as the human rights movement, the feminist movement, the labor move- ment? Many of us in FREPASO were founders of and activists in the human rights movement during the dic- tatorship. And we have been actively pushing for laws promoting human rights, like some of the laws that rates the ip between rful and the assessed? the fastest-growing continent eco- nomically. But at the same time, however, in those countries where there was the most equality, as was the case in Argentina, there is now more polarization. The U.S. model is being copied at full speed. My biggest worry is what do we do with the youth. How do we keep what we once had, which was to assure good social conditions, good health and education. I was alarmed recently after seeing some height charts that indicate a decrease in the height of Argentine children. This does not happen in economically stable countries. Can you tell me how Graciela Fernandez today differs from the human rights leader of the last decade? Besides the changes you have already mentioned, what is different about you today? Less anguish. Now I know what it's like to live with- out anguish. One realizes the dimension of one's anguish only after you no longer have it. When I real- ized that I no longer had to fear for my children's well- being, I started waking up without back pains. It also has to do with age or maturity, since life teaches a great deal. Today I face things with much less anxiety. I'm much more involved in public life. My feet are firmly planted on the ground, which I think is one my traits, I was like that before. I'm generally someone tethered to the ground. Perhaps this coincides with everything else. Many of the same old political figures reappear and I realize that nothing has changed here, they are still saying the same thing. For example, in 1982, I was in favor of not pay- ing the foreign debt, but nowadays I ask how we ever thought we didn't have to pay. Now I look for negotia- tions or some intermediate steps. That is what I mean by maturity.
