Comparing the Workers Party (PT) today and ten years ago, would you say that the PT is gaining or losing strength in Brazil? I would say that the PT is gaining strength. If you analyze the election results, the PT has grown after each election since its founding in 1980. In the 1996 elections, the PT was the most-voted party in Brazil's 100 largest cities. In seven cities we com- peted in the second round and lost because everybody united against us. Obviously, there is a substantial dif- ference if you compare the PT ten years ago and today. Ten years ago, the PT was more present, more active in the social struggle. In 1997, the party is more present in the political struggle. Now, we have to combine the two things, the social struggle and the political struggle. There was a strong relationship between the PT and the labor movement when the PT was founded 17 years ago. How would you describe this relationship today? The relationship is not as strong as it was in the begin- ning. The PT was born from the labor movement, from the strikes of 1978, 1979 and 1980. Then there was a strong linkage. As the party grew, it opened itself to other social segments. The labor movement is no longer the only one. There are other social segments and the labor movement no longer has the same influence that it had at the beginning. But it continues to have a privi- leged and I would say priority linkage with the PT. Does the government of President Fernando Henrique Cardoso, which combines neoliberal policies and reformist initiatives, help or hinder the growth of the PT? The government of President Cardoso has helped the PT formulate better policies and better proposals. I con- fess that the Cardoso government has been the most dif- ficult government to confront. First, we had to confront an authoritarian military regime that was opposed by everyone. After that, we confronted the government of President Sarney, that was opposed by everyone. Next we confronted Collor, who was also opposed by every- one. Now we are confronting Fernando Henrique Cardoso, who was able to gain a great deal of support in the university, to divide the intellectual base of our party, and who has a positive image due to his political history. He demands more competence in the art of being an opposition movement and in the art of formulating alter- native proposals for the country to show clearly the dif- ference between our policies and his neoliberal policies. At first, we had difficulty because the president built a powerful coalition in the political arena. Now the party is agreeing that the political struggle by itself does not solve the problem. The social struggle is also necessary. During the governments of Presidents Sarney and Collor, the press portrayed the PT as a progressive party. During the government of President Cardoso, the press has painted the PT as a conservative party, a party with old ideas. What is happening? What is happening is that Cardoso is achieving a cer- tain hegemony around neoliberal ideology. Today you cannot find a single newspaper in Brazil that opposes the neoliberal policies, only a few journalists. There is a general agreement with neoliberal policies-the open- ing of borders, the privatization of all companies, the reduction of the role of the state. This doctrine predom- inates today in the media and those against it do not have spaces. Cardoso, who came from the left, was drawn to the neoliberal project, and was able to make an alliance with the conservatives. What conservatives attempted unsuccessfully, Cardoso is achieving through this hegemony. By the way, I have never seen the Brazilian press as subservient as it is today. Since the PT was founded, it, along with the labor move- ment, has led the progressive movement in Brazil. Is this situation changing with the emergence of the Landless People's Movement (MST)? The struggle of the Brazilian people is cyclical. There was a time when the unions were the most important actors in the process of redemocratization. We even built the largest labor confederation in Latin America, the Central Federation of Workers (CUT). Today it is the MST. When we obtain agrarian reform, it will no longer be the MST. It may be the homeless people's movement, 17VOICES ON THE LEFT the human rights movement, or another. The PT has always been in favor of agrarian reform. Landless peo- ple are concerned specifically with agrarian reform and our role is not to compete, but to show solidarity with the struggles of the MST. Tomorrow, if a homeless peo- ple's movement emerges, our role will be to demonstrate our solidarity with them. If afterwards a movement against forced labor emerges, the PT should not want to be the vanguard of the movement. We will show our sol- idarity with the struggle if it is just and improves the quality of life of the Brazilian people. Are there many ties between the landless people and the PT? How is this relationship? Yes, there are many ties. I would say that 85% or 90% of the persons We were participating in the landless move- ment are sympathetic to the mobilized Worker's Party, but the movement is autonomous. ago tha What are the main objectives of the today. It' PT in the short and in the long term? that th The PT's main long-term objec- tive is to build another model of space in society in which the people receive a fair share of the fruits of their struggle; work. The objective in the short run struggle nc is to prevent the government of President Cardoso from destroying the stren Brazil as a nation. We want to prove that Brazil can participate in the bef global economy without submis- sion. We want to prove that it is pos- sible to formulate an industrial pol- icy, an agricultural policy, a health policy, an education policy-poli- cies that are different from the existing ones. This must be accomplished soon, because the people cannot wait a long time. We need policies that can result in more jobs for the Brazilian people. The main difficulty is that the PT did not win the pres- idential election in 1994. We will not stop because we did not win. We have to pressure the Brazilian govern- ment to ensure that it fulfills some of the promises it made during the campaign, even if it doesn't do all the things we would like. You said that the party has become more open and enjoys the participation of different social groups and movements other than the labor movement. How mobi- lized are these groups and movements compared to a decade ago? 'n n s t t 9. gi We were much more mobilized then than we are today. I would say that in the beginning we were con- stantly mobilized. We were more mobilized because the social movements were also more mobilized than they are today. It is important to remember that there is a dif- ference between the world in which the PT was born and the world today. In the world in which the PT was born, Cardoso was on the left. Today, he is not. Brazilian soci- ety remains the same, but Brazilian politics is different. The progressive church, for example, does not have the strength that it had in the 1980s. The struggle against the military regime, which unified everyone, no longer exists. The pop- ular movement no longer has the same strength. It is not only that the PT has lost ground in the social uch more struggle, but that the social struggle no longer has the strength that it once ten years had. The PT has to resume that social struggle. we are We are planning to start a campaign not just against unemployment. The objec- tive of this campaign is not only to PT lost critique the neoliberal policies which cause unemployment, along with the ie social globalization of the world economy, but above all to present proposals to he social create jobs. longer has Is the PT well connected with pro- gressive groups and parties in Latin th it had America? re. Yes, we are. We created the Sdo Paulo Forum, which brings together the Latin American left. We will hold our sixth meeting soon in Porto Alegre. The CUT and the labor movements in Argentina, Uruguay and Paraguay are unified and have concrete proposals for Mercosur. In Brazil, we are now forming a bloc in the National Congress, to act jointly in the Chamber of Deputies and in the Senate. Thus, we are taking impor- tant steps towards unifying of the left. Do you think the PT can win the next presidential elec- tion? I don't think anyone is unbeatable in elections. I seemed unbeatable in 1994 and I did not win the elec- tion. Cardoso in 1998, in my opinion, will be much more vulnerable than he is now and than he was in 1994. It is hard to know what will happen in 1998. If there are many conservative candidates, the PT's chances increase. If the conservatives are united around one can- didate, as they were in 1994, it will be more difficult. It NACIA REPORT ON THE AMERICASVOICES ON THE LEFT is hard to say. But I can guarantee that the PT will have a candidate and I think that the PT can be competitive against the other parties. The PT as you say, has to combine efforts to win the elec- toral and party struggle and efforts to organize society. Where is the PT concentrating its efforts, in the electoral and party struggle or in the organization of society and the formulation of an alternative project? Unfortunately, in the electoral struggle the PT has a serious problem. It has to compete in general elections and when there are no general elections, there are party elections. You cannot organize the people one year because you are thinking about the general elections and in another year because you are In B thinking about the party elections. We have to solve this problem. I left candidates the National Executive Commission food to because I want to be free to work on the organization of society. This is This is the only thing that can guarantee not only the conquest of the government problemati but also the exercise of government of the le power by a party like the PT. You left the presidency of the PT and created the Citizenship Institute last year This change, as you said, makes clear your position regarding the importance of organizing society and the formulation of alternative poli- cies. Isn't it also an expression of dis- enchantment with the electoral and party struggle? Workers F strug! an ideal, and pro! not o to come to power, but it must do so without abandoning its identity and its principles. Is the PT closer to this objective, or in better condition to achieve this objective, than other parties of the left in Latin America? The PT is the biggest party of the left in Latin America. But conditions are different in each country and our dream may happen in another country and not in Brazil. In El Salvador the left had a great victory. The Broad Front in Uruguay is a respectable political force. In Argentina, the opposition won 30% of the votes. Each country has a history, but the PT has a great chance of not only making alliances but also of winning gov- azil, ernment power. still hand out win votes. obviously ic for a party ft like the Sarty, which gles for a principle gram, and inly for power. No, on the contrary. I was very successful in this struggle. The PT was born in this struggle. Every year since 1982, the PT has grown. I competed in two elec- tions for the presidency of the republic with a good chance of winning. There is no disenchantment. I am trying to show that it is possible to make politics with- out an electoral mandate and a party apparatus, and that it is possible to establish a direct connection with soci- ety. I am trying to show that it is possible for anyone to work for the things in which he or she believes without being in political office. The main objective of the progressive sectors must be to conquer government power because only in govern- ment can one initiate a different political project, define the nature of the state and who the state will serve, and change the rules of the game. To achieve this objective, we have to change our view of electoral competition. A party like the PT has to make political alliances in order democratic. They Is the difficulty of making alliances the main problem that the PT and the progressive parties have to over- come in the next few years? We have to animate the electoral system in Latin America and above all in Brazil. The electoral process is highly subordinated to economic power. The candidates spend for- tunes on campaigns. It is absurd. It is necessary to increase the equality of opportunity in the electoral sys- tem. In Brazil, candidates still hand out food to win votes. This is obvi- ously problematic for a party of the left that struggles for an ideal, a principle and program, and not only for power. This is one difficulty. The other difficulty is access to media. In Brazil and in Latin America the mass media are not are at the service of the dominant class. This means, of course, that the opposition is at a serious disadvantage, and this obviously complicates things. A third difficulty is popular organization. The left can never dispense with popular organization. It is the most important thing for a party of the left. The PT neglected it for some time and now we have to make up for lost time. Is the development of new party activists tied to the question of popular organization? Yes it is. Political education and the development of new Workers Party activists is linked to popular orga- nization. Political education is a priority for a party like the PT.
